Just updating... I have no time to answer in real time, so I'm writing from old annotations.
(12-04-2021 07:55 AM)solar33 Wrote: [ -> ]Hello, Vivekananda.
I just stopped by to see how your thread was progressing.
Hello, solar 33.
"Why are you so invested in this whole debate?"
My sincere opinion is that there is an irrational attack on the resources of modern science. I believe lives are being needlessly lost.
"Do you have shares in a pharma company?"
Your question raises a suspicion that seems to be repeated here among anti-vaxes.
I've never owned shares in pharmas, and from my past experience in the stock market, it's likely that I never have again - in any company, pharma or not.
But it is exactly equivalent to the suspicions raised about who has economic interests in supporting the anti-vax movement.
You'll have to accept my word on this.
Just like I have to accept yours when you talk about having a child who was harmed by a vaccine.
It's interesting, however, to see that you didn't told us about which vaccine you were talking about.
"Are you on a mission to save lives?"
You can think this way, if you want. But I don't think that it's really a "mission".
"Or are you just trying to win this argument?"
I just want to expose the way that I think. There is not a personal reward for winning or loosing here.
"If it is the latter, then I think you are pissing against the wind buddy. (it's a UK phrase)"
In Brazil you would say that I am "cuspindo para cima" (I suppose it is like "spitting up" in English)
"you are not going to make anyone here change their mind - including me"
I really don't have to. I only keep myself informed of what is happening. Vaccines (with masks and social distancing, etc.) are working (unfortunelly, for less time that I would like, but the reinforcement doses are kind of partial solution to this problem).
The Brazilian economy is suffering a lot with serious problems, but we're having a time of great illusion, with people feeling secure to returning to old "normal" way of life.
There are very strong economic interests at stake.
There was no carnival in 2021, and we still don't know if we will have it now in 2022.
I don't know if the tourism industry in Rio de Janeiro and in the rest of the country will manage to survive to a new cancellation of the carnival.
I believe that this return to normality, together with the passing of the useful time of immunity granted by the vaccine, will end up bringing new problems to the country.
Some antivax arguments in another thread are kind of crazy. In some months some ideas (like "everybody that take the shots will die in 1 year) will be destructed.
It' just like you said in the end:
"Time will tell and we will see who's the last man standing."
Another crazy idea was about the probability of being hit by an asteroid being upper than die by covid...
The guy that wrote this must live in Smallville...
"I have made up my mind based on solid science and personal knowledge from within the NHS"
Just like me, but not within NHS
"I am not stupid, feeble-minded, gullible or deluded."
Good for you. And for the world.
"I am not Antivaxx per say, I have had all my vaccines up until this plandemic."
I had all, including a shot against influenza, during this pandemic.
And I'm ready to get the reinforcement shot.
"I have however, had a son vaccine damaged by the MMR vaccine"
An now I have to accept your word on this.
An I have a friend damaged by covid.
And I have another friend that have a small problem caused by the lack of vaccination against polio, she can't walk straight, she limps.
And I know people that were severed crippled by the same reason.
I think that I know how the parents of these persons feel about the antivax movement.
I know, it's not the same vaccine, but the problem is that the lies about "vaccines causing autism" seemed to have started an antivax movement that is being reinforced by more lies.
More people is dying and being crippled, and I don't forget that there are problems even with the "old" vaccines that we had. The "old" vaccines present problems in a small percentage of the population.
As far as I know, we are facing a pandemic, so the problem is mathematical:
I prefer to take the (statistically low) risks of having problems with the current vaccines, comparing that risk with the much greater possibility of contracting covid and having problems that could have been avoided.
Currently, there is also a development of vaccines against covid by the "old" method of inactivated virus.
"Do you think you are going to change my mind?"
No. I don't think that this is personal. This is not my intent. I believe in rational discussions.
"So, why not just agree to disagree with the others and get back to marketing?"
Yes, I'm doing this. There are LOTS of extra arguments that I still have not yet published here. I call it food for tought.
"Again, I ask you - what do you expect to achieve by keeping this going?"
I hope this is a healthy discussion, not contaminated by the disease of radicalism.
It's the only way I know of progressing towards something concrete.
If I only listen to those who agree with me, there is no progress.
Likewise, if those who disagree with me do not think about what I write, there is no progress.
If someone says he can't change his mind, whatever argument he hears or reads, or whatever fact is presented to him, what do we have?
Anyone interested in a scientific fact or in sustaining their way of thinking in an almost dogmatic way?
I never considered myself a keeper of the truth, but according to everything I've learned in my life, vaccines are still the best solution.
As I predicted at the beginning of the pandemic, the need to find a quick solution would lead some scientists to abandon the necessary caution.
People like Frenchman Didier Raoult, who released a flawed study defending the use of chloroquine against covid - a study that eluded politicians seeking a quick solution to the problem.
But I must say that as far as I know "big pharma" was as careful as possible, and brought us the best possible solution during an emergency.
The vaccines were tested on volunteers, they have already passed the "experimental" phase. They are a part of a REAL solution.
And yes, "small pharma" has profited A LOT here in Brazil, with chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.
India also made a profit - as they export raw material for the manufacture of chloroquine and raw material for vaccines.
Here we are developing a "traditional" vaccine that is cheaper and significantly less costly than what "big pharma" now offers us.
I hope that one day it will be completed and used on a large scale.
Her only problem is that we can't passively watch people die while this "traditional" vaccine is being developed.
again: "what do you expect to achieve by keeping this going?"
Have you made this same question in the thread that I mentioned in post #1?
"Time will tell and we will see who's the last man standing."
Okay... At this moment, the official number of deaths caused by covid in Brazil is larger than 615000.
Fortunately for Brazilians, in South America, Brazil is the country whose population is least opposed to vaccination. The estimated population here is 213,3 million of inhabitants.
By the end of next year we'll see the antivaxes profecies are real or not...
I mean, if we manage to survive up to 2022 december, we'll see:
- if most of the vaccinated people in the world has died,
- or being damaged by vaccines (now that Brazil and other countries are using Pfizer even in children),
- or being hit by asteroids,
- or if our football players are having collapsing (even dying) during the matches.
Now, being a guy that is not a newbie to this, but a 12-year long researcher, what is your perspective about the future of mankind - and big pharma, of course?
If the problem is so serious as antivaxes - extremists like the ones in post#1111 saying nonsense things about Bill Gates, or even as selective antivaxes (anti-mrna) like you, what will we see?
The very rich "big pharmers" living in luxury among countless corpses while the world's economy collapses?
I can't imagine this scenario, but I guess that antivaxes will continue to create new theories and fake news, even if the science could produce vaccines with zero problems.
Oh, yes... the "old" innoculated virus vaccines also have lots of collateral effects. The same vaccines you say that took, before pandemics.