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(05-15-2021 10:04 AM)smithnowt Wrote: [ -> ][size=large]Long ago (before learning of BBHF...!) I got into the Awai program about it, and got very discouraged as it basically told its students that copywriting is all about exaggerating, tricking, stretching the truth, and outright lying.
That is what all I got out of it.

Oh man, that's where your problem is, right there.
You need to go back to your AWAI course because you TOTALLY got it wrong!

And I'm glad to see someone on this thread agrees with me:

(05-16-2021 12:39 AM)GetStuffDone Wrote: [ -> ]We all know that copy that works is not about hype.
Whats more telling this about AWAi is just funny.
Show us the course and the line where you heard that!!!!! and the line where you heard about lies and all that.
Im sure 100% there is no such a course by AWAI!!!!!

I can say this with 100% certainty and accuracy: At no place, at no time, and in no way, does anyone at AWAI ever suggest that anyone exaggerates, tricks, stretches the truth or outright lies!

And after paying the $$$ I paid for their copywriting course, I went on to pay them more $$$$ to join their 'Circle of Success', because there isn't any better, more complete or professional copywriting education online, imo.

So, if that's what you got from it, then that's in your head, not in the teaching!

Which, along with what you write about selling, sounds to me like your own prejudice about selling and copywriting being projected onto AWAI.

Clear your head, man.

IF you don't like salespeople, or selling, don't become a copywriter. Or a salesperson. OR a product or services business person (because you will have to sell them).

Here's my story, and why I tell you what I tell you:

I worked in the offline marketing and advertising agency world, as an art director, for 20+ years. What you describe is simply not acceptable in the professional world. In fact, it's illegal in my country: it's called 'misrepresentation'. As a copywriter, you'll lose your job if you start adding 'lies, tricks' exaggerations, stretches of truth... etc'. Because your client can be sued for it, which means your agency can be sued for it, which means you'll lose your job and never work again.

I also took some of the AWAI copywriting courses, way back in 2006 or 2007 -- because they were some of the best accessible direct marketing courses available online at the time. With recommendations by some of the most highly respected Direct Marketers, and DM associations.

And I saw NOTHING in any of their material that suggested doing what you say. And I saw NOTHING that I could not use whilst working in a highly ranked advertising agency.

What I did see was a distillation of the best direct advertising and marketing advice, in one place, in teachable form. What I found was a distillation of what David Ogilvy taught.

And, by the way, using their EXACT writing strategy, I landed a £5k per month contract that ran for 2 years, within months of starting the AWAI course. And the company I got the contract from used 'soft sell' strategies which would NEVER use the kind of stuff you describe even if it was legal to do so. Strategies I was able to glean from the AWAI teaching.

I have a high regard for the people over at AWAI and their training. There's a good reason why people like Dan Kennedy and Clayton Makepeace, and Ben Settle, and a ton of other respectable, successful writers, all produce courses for them, and partner with them.

IF you can't get something useful and good from their stuff. Then maybe it's you.
Because it's NOT them.

(05-28-2021 06:32 PM)Magma Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-15-2021 10:04 AM)smithnowt Wrote: [ -> ][size=large]Long ago (before learning of BBHF...!) I got into the Awai program about it, and got very discouraged as it basically told its students that copywriting is all about exaggerating, tricking, stretching the truth, and outright lying.
That is what all I got out of it.

Oh man, that's where your problem is, right there.
You need to go back to your AWAI course because you TOTALLY got it wrong!

And I'm glad to see someone on this thread agrees with me:

(05-16-2021 12:39 AM)GetStuffDone Wrote: [ -> ]We all know that copy that works is not about hype.
Whats more telling this about AWAi is just funny.
Show us the course and the line where you heard that!!!!! and the line where you heard about lies and all that.
Im sure 100% there is no such a course by AWAI!!!!!

I can say this with 100% certainty and accuracy: At no place, at no time, and in no way, does anyone at AWAI ever suggest that anyone exaggerates, tricks, stretches the truth or outright lies!

And after paying the $$$ I paid for their copywriting course, I went on to pay them more $$$$ to join their 'Circle of Success', because there isn't any better, more complete or professional copywriting education online, imo.

So, if that's what you got from it, then that's in your head, not in the teaching!

Which, along with what you write about selling, sounds to me like your own prejudice about selling and copywriting being projected onto AWAI.

Clear your head, man.

IF you don't like salespeople, or selling, don't become a copywriter. Or a salesperson. OR a product or services business person (because you will have to sell them).

Here's my story, and why I tell you what I tell you:

I worked in the offline marketing and advertising agency world, as an art director, for 20+ years. What you describe is simply not acceptable in the professional world. In fact, it's illegal in my country: it's called 'misrepresentation'. As a copywriter, you'll lose your job if you start adding 'lies, tricks' exaggerations, stretches of truth... etc'. Because your client can be sued for it, which means your agency can be sued for it, which means you'll lose your job and never work again.

I also took some of the AWAI copywriting courses, way back in 2006 or 2007 -- because they were some of the best accessible direct marketing courses available online at the time. With recommendations by some of the most highly respected Direct Marketers, and DM associations.

And I saw NOTHING in any of their material that suggested doing what you say. And I saw NOTHING that I could not use whilst working in a highly ranked advertising agency.

What I did see was a distillation of the best direct advertising and marketing advice, in one place, in teachable form. What I found was a distillation of what David Ogilvy taught.

And, by the way, using their EXACT writing strategy, I landed a £5k per month contract that ran for 2 years, within months of starting the AWAI course. And the company I got the contract from used 'soft sell' strategies which would NEVER use the kind of stuff you describe even if it was legal to do so. Strategies I was able to glean from the AWAI teaching.

I have a high regard for the people over at AWAI and their training. There's a good reason why people like Dan Kennedy and Clayton Makepeace, and Ben Settle, and a ton of other respectable, successful writers, all produce courses for them, and partner with them.

IF you can't get something useful and good from their stuff. Then maybe it's you.
Because it's NOT them.

You clearly have way more patience than i do.

And i agree with every word!

Great copy is not hype.

Gary Halbert told it.

Dan Kennedy and Ben Settle working with AWAI have told MILLION of times that it should not by hype.

In fact i dont know any great copywriter that is using tricks or hype.

Even copywriters that tell you to hype it up, are not hyping it, but touching your emotions in such a way that you that you desperately wanting it. (TJ)

There is not only such thing as honest copy, but all MILLION dollar level copy is honest.

Or it just wont survive for a long time.

I mean its not 1940 anymore.

You cant say what the hell you want.

You have to play around and find THE LEAST hype option possible.

In fact Dan once said ...

... The mos powerful marketing, copy, persuasion strategy is ....

What do you think it is ????

Its the TRUTH.

So if you hate all the world, and everybody is a criminal trying to steal your money, its not them.

ITS YOU.

And i know it for a fact.

You see we all have emotional traumas.

And one of the traumas is ...

... THE WORLD CANT BE TRUSTED.

I mean there are a lot of sick , mean, mad and disgusting people out there.

As my friend like to say in her native language. I wish all the bad people got 4ucked in the ass.

But not all the people are bad socialists that try to steal your money.

And certainly not all business people and sales people are bad.

In fact quite the opposite is true, great sales people are kind and caring.

Doberman Dan, Dan Kennedy, Carlton and Halbert.

They really want you to succeed. And care about you.

So if you hate money and hate capitalism. Its not them. Its you.

I cant tell that all copywriters are good.

But i certainly dont know anybody who is great and dishonest $4IT.

And beyond the shadow of the doubt AWAI is a trusted brand.

Or Dan Kennedy would never EVER EVER work with them.

So if you need to do sth with emotional traumas, it makes sense to solve and then study COPY.

Because great COPY and great emotional manipulation is only possible if you TELL THE TRUTH EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Piece

AWAI has many fine courses. There is always something to learn from their courses.
Could they be better? Yeah. But the same can be said of most if not all courses.

Years ago they were one of the only sources for copywriting courses.
That is a good thing.

It sounds like you don't like the AWAI courses you have.
That's normal. Nobody likes all the courses they have.
Take what you can from them and move on.

As far as copywriting and copywriters being unscrupulous, devious tricksters--
putting words in your mouth perhaps, but if you are trolling...
Good trick? nah Just wasting your time.

But if you are not trolling, then here's my key question...

Ask yourself, "How can I be an honest copywriter?"

I think that is what you are asking.

How can I keep my integrity as a writer, even though there may be others who do not?

If you are really sincere about discovering...

How can I sell and be true to my own personal Values?...

so that I can do the right thing.

and be one of those rare individuals who sells a product he or she believes in,
who who shares the passion and the commitment to excellence that I may be really pursuing,

and eventually I will get to a place where I stand out as a leader in the field,

then how can I do this?

Is it possible for me to be the kind of person that really is an honest copywriter?

So that I am proud of my accomplishments and others look on me as a worthy individual.

And perhaps on an even deeper level, you want to answer the philosophical question
that's been bugging you, "IS copywriting itself ethical?"...

When someone is working on a project or trying to solve a Problem,
the biggest problem they have, probably one of the largest,
is not having enough information about what the problem is.

So the first step is go outside, in the warm sunshine, and think about this:
“Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was myself. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.”
― Zhuangzi, The Butterfly as Companion: Meditations on the First Three Chapters of the Chuang-Tzu

Allow this to extend yourself beyond yourself. Free yourself to wonder.
Disconnect your personal attachment to your own opinions
and consider the ideas themselves, independent of you or me or others.

You might even ask "let's assume for a minute that these other opinions are right,
let's assume they have a point. Now where does that lead me?"

And then imagine you are floating above yourself, and see yourself reading this book,
by Seth Godin--
All Marketers Are Liars- The Power of Telling Authentic Stories in a Low-Trust World

There are some answers in there.

So for aspiring copywriters who may read this later,
keep on your path. Copywriting is a path worth pursuing.
Apply your own ethical standards and make sure all your claims can be proven.
Provide 30 day money back guarantees and process refunds quickly and your good to go.

Hope this helps!

for your very thought filled and helpfully aimed reply CrimsonHat !!

I always keep in mind to consider the positions and POV of others when they widely differ from my own.

For example:
Most folks here care very much about all things to do with money - which is 100% fine;
VS me:
I only care about having enough of everything for what I see as a decent lifestyle.

How that differs is also that even in my old age I am quite satisfied to maintain what most USA residents would view as a substandard lifestyle.

Then why am I even here at BBHF at all ??

Simple:
Accepting and recognizing my aging, needs for rest and how it all imposes increasing limitations upon any ambitions I may have - it is only wise to try to have less strenuous alternatives for moving ahead through time as these changes come along.

Example:
I still travel to my tiny 'office' where I mostly just work for that place's owner...
The trip to there is over 100 miles of driving each way, and=>
I do so much within a few days that all I get is little naps between going and driving home.
Then I am totally useless in all ways after getting home...longer and longer each time I do it.

Consider those little marathons vs. being able to do some hours of work each day to earn enough for our minimal needs...and there you have it - my small ambition for being here.

Aside of that, when folks point at me and say some version of 'you need to fix yourself because the problem here is YOU' - I try to see what they're pointing out, and I also keep in mind that we are ALL somehow afflicted by the world we live in and that 'ALL' has to include myself of course.

As such (and as shared variously here in other posts...) I have been working to 'fix myself' from said afflictions for many decades, for as many of those things as I am able to isolate and dig out.

Introspection and self-examination became a daily exercised devotion of mine VERY long ago.

Do I intend to make $$$ any sort of center to my life for my remaining years ??
Nope.

My very conscious and deliberately aimed center revolves around staying as aware, healthy and active as I may whilst doing as I may to have ENOUGH of that (imaginary based, but always necessary...) $$$ stuff.

This is also why I have avoided becoming obsessed with investment stuff like forex, crypto, stocks, and so on;
That sort of devotion is not fitting for an older man who knows he has already slowed down quite a bit and will likely slow down even more.
As such, ANYTHING that requires attentions RIGHT THIS MINUTE in avoiding poor results is also a very poor choice for me.

So...once again:
-IF- it is possible for me to pinpoint a good way to do some copywriting with honesty and integrity as I desire it to be - then meeting a deadline now and again can be worked in much more easily than traveling many hundreds of miles with too little rest.

Yes, I'm working on this - and on me - and fortunately I need not hurry about it.

And in closing, for now:
If I never get it right before I take in my final gasp of air, that is totally OK too, as it would no longer matter after that !!

.
.
Best Wishes to ALL !!

Thats your problem: you dont want to make money.

And we want money not for money but what money can give

You should follow TJ Rohleder

(05-31-2021 09:07 PM)GetStuffDone Wrote: [ -> ]Thats your problem: you dont want to make money.

From a quick read of his last post, I do not think he said that he doesn't want to make money. Rather he said he is not attached to the desire of making lots of money. Not attached to the pursuit of money.

But even if he did not want to make money, that in itself is not a problem. It is just a Values statement.

Of course not wanting to make money will have a ripple effect spreading outward into other areas of life. Thus creating currents which are difficult to overcome. Such as not having enough money to get by.

And the opposite is also true--say you want to make money. That also is not a problem. And that also has a cause-effect on other areas.

How about this idea...

Just write because you love to write. See where that takes you. Make some money. Or just write for pure fun. There are no limitations on your writing. Study persuasion so you can write better. Break all the rules of Copy if you want. Perhaps you will create a masterpiece.

deleting my post - not worth it...

Thanks Very Much for your compassionate reply !!:

You are 100% correct here:

(07-13-2021 05:55 PM)crimsonHat Wrote: [ -> ]From a quick read of his last post, I do not think he said that he doesn't want to make money. Rather he said he is not attached to the desire of making lots of money. Not attached to the pursuit of money.

But even if he did not want to make money, that in itself is not a problem. It is just a Values statement.

This is also a great idea, thanks:

(07-13-2021 05:55 PM)crimsonHat Wrote: [ -> ]How about this idea...
Just write because you love to write. See where that takes you. Make some money. Or just write for pure fun. There are no limitations on your writing. Study persuasion so you can write better. Break all the rules of Copy if you want. Perhaps you will create a masterpiece.

I am working towards bypassing some health problems which must be solved for me to do any more typing than I already do in making replies here, and when that waypoint is passed I will begin to populate a blog - that is my plan ATM.

Many folks who are younger have difficulty imagining how it is possible that simple daily things can become challenges simply due to aging and health concerns.

When such wonderment applies, I would point attentions toward what we saw in our 80-90 y/o elders in their waning years - that just doing normal every day stuff took all their efforts and energies and any more serious health challenges they had to face really knocked them around seriously.

We are fortunate IMO, because at retirement age we learned early enough to detoxify as much as possible so we have stayed healthier than so many less fortunate folks in recent times.

Anyhow - back to copywriting - it is also on the table as a reachable method for me, and also to do with the challenge of getting words into printed forms when that hurdle is finally overcome for me.

Again - Sincerest Thanks !!

And...
Best Wishes to Thrive with Perfect Health to ALL !!